Lately I have been misquoted and had my words taken out of context with pictures of me with slides that say “Screw Google” as I am speaking to people at various conferences.
Obviously without any context, those 2 words – “Screw Google” can be wide open for interpretation and most of the time its not the interpretation that I would like.
It’s actually not so much a Screw Google approach as it’s a screw SEO first approach.

Lets jump right into the case studies
Three years ago at Webmaster World Pubcon there was a site clinic where top search engine blogger – Danny Sullivan and Google Search Engineer – Matt Cutts were giving advice to people who wanted tips manipulating the Google search results to rank their website higher then it currently (naturally/organically) was.
Dr David Klein stood up and gave out his website. He said he wanted to rank for “San Diego Chiropractic”. After bringing up Dr Klein’s website Danny Sullivan cracked a joke that he might want to have “San Diego Chiropractic” in the title of the website if you want to be ranked. Which also inspired the crowd to have a good laugh at Dr Klein’s ignorance of SEO.
I remember feeling really bad for Dr Klein and evidently so did many others because pretty much every SEO on the planet came out of the woodwork to help him. Now keep in mind before this conference he was not found anywhere for “San Diego Chiropractic”. But soon after… with the help of all the top SEO’s in the world including a post by Matt Cutts containing 8 links to Dr Klein’s San Diego Chiropractic website, he was ranking #1 for San Diego Chiropractic in no time.
3 years later he still holds that #1 listing.
Ok sounds great right? Google ‘s top gun (Matt Cutts) and all the best SEO’s in the world have advised him how to manipulate Google ‘s results to make his website show up #1.
But there is only one problem. When DK (Dr David Klein) came to me for help converting web visitors into customers he told me he was not getting any customers from his website. And honestly a quick look at the website shows you why. Its not very user friendly and there is no real call to action or incentive to book an appointment.
I told DK we would have to do some serious design changes to get some conversion. But he had no interest in that. He said he did not want to lose his #1 ranking for San Diego Chiropractic by making changes to the website….. even if it delivered him zero actual sales or customers.
DK has since become one of the foremost experts on Facebook Advertising but instead of altering his website to convert his natural, free traffic he builds internal pages that are highly optimized for conversion where he pays for the traffic from Facebook.
This is a typical example where my hatred of SEO comes from. The whole point of SEO is to manipulate Google so your site ranks better then where it naturally would without optimizing it so you can get free traffic for your keywords. But when you get your pages there if they do not convert to your goals then what is the benefit? Other than bragging rights….
The newest example comes from a blog post yesterday by Michael Gray (Graywolf). The post is titled Why Everyone Should Turn Off Blog Comments.
Now first let me say there are a handful of people in this industry that I really trust, honor and respect and Michael Gray is on that very short list. As far as his ability as a professional SEO is concerned he is as good as it gets. In the post Michael makes some good points as to why you would want to turn off comments or alter them so you can manipulate your rankings in Google better.
With that said I think its very dangerous to advise everyone to straight up turn off comments on their blog. One of the biggest reasons my blog (ShoeMoney.com) has become an authority in the industry is because of the community around the brand. And that comes from interacting with my readers and letting them interact with other readers. Comments on the blog is a big part of that.
Now there are good reasons to turn off comments on your blog.
- If you are anti-social and just don’t want to interact with people.
- If you can’t handle criticism.
- If you don’t have time to moderate comments.
But if your number one decision in making changes on your website is because of what Google thinks then that is a HUGE mistake.
Last week in the ShoeMoney System webinar we had on Ben Huh CEO of icanhascheezburger.com, failblog.com and others… basically the biggest blog network in the world. It was music to my ears to hear him say that they NEVER look at their Google analytics for keywords. They care about their users and their users experience on their website. They care how much users recommend their site to a friend. They care how much time a user spends on the site. They get hundreds of comments per post and constantly look at how to get users to interact more with their websites.
So you would think a site like this…. who could care less about their rankings in Google, would do really bad in search engines, right? You could not be farther from the truth. They dominate Google for many phrases…. and when they get that traffic it only helps them grow more because they are optimized for users sharing their content… not for manipulating Google.
I am in the same boat. Have I profited from SEO? Yes very much so. But I do well in SEO because I have first and foremost created websites that people actually naturally want to link to and refer their friends to. This in turn helps me build authority with Google which helps my websites rank for their keywords.
This was not always like this. I used to live and die by Google. But then my sites started getting nuked out by Google (my own fault) and I thought my world was over… and while I was able to get them back in because of the connections I had, it taught me a valuable lesson… and from then on I decided I would never again live in fear of Google. Sure I try to adhere to Google’s best practices in regards to linking and paid posts and stuff labeling them properly with no follow tags but we do so little of that, that honestly it really does not play a part.
The really interesting thing… as you can see from my examples above, is that the more I focused on building my brand and the user experience on my websites. The better my rankings in Google did. This all with next to zero on site Search Engine Optimization.
Seems really strange right? Well I can see where many people would be confused. You should read my back posts about SEO… and things in particular the history of SEO and the future of SEO.
One of the keys is to be too big to fail.
Here is one thing I really want you to keep in mind. At its core Google makes all of its money because people use its search engine. If people have a bad experience using that search engine then they will turn to other search engines. So Google hates it when YOU make them look stupid. In October of 2007 I made this video about making Google look stupid and why its important not to. In my 10+ visits to Google headquarters in the years since every time that video has come up in conversation by a Google employee. I dunno if they show it internally or something but I have been told on many occasions by many different Google employees that it hit the nail on the head (off the record of course).
The basic just of that video was talking about how Google needs to keep up this image that they have this big super computer driven algorithm and how it knows everything. Kind of like the mechanical turk.
Let me give you a couple case studies on what I am talking about. Many years ago John Chow was just getting started in the world of making money online. He started a blog at JohnChow.com. He did just about everything that Google hated. He setup reciprocal linking structures, sold paid links, and other… what Google considers “Black Hat” methods. Google took him out of the search index and whenever anyone looked for John Chow they could not find him.
But a strange phenomenon happened. John Chow continued to grow in popularity. Well not grow but EXPLODE. Over the last several years he had built his readership to 70,000 RSS subscribers and thousands of daily web visitors. The John Chow brand was in full effect.
But now Google has a massive problem. John Chow has become too big to not be in Google. After all if you Googled for his name and could not find him in Google the user is left with a bad experience and considers Google incompetent. They don’t know the back-story or care why he is not found.
Did the ends justify the means? Hell yes. John is not only back in Google but he is ranking for every single one of the keyword terms he was practicing “black hat” techniques for.
Do you think John would have gotten very far if when he had little readership he stopped doing his thing years ago and followed Google’s rules to a T? Maybe he would be like every other blogger trying to do that.
Lets look at a bigger brand for a minute.
A few years back German car manufacture BMW was outed for doing some serious “Black Hat” linking techniques and Google swiftly responded by taking them completely out of the search engine.
But amazingly enough they were right back in Google after cooperating… It was one of Google’s top priorities to get BMW back in its index. Can you imagine how incompetent Google looks when someone searches for BMW and they cant find the BMW website?
Some of my professional SEO friends that take on some large clients love it when they are big brands because they know they can push the boundaries.
Sorry I got pretty winded, but I wanted to drive home a couple of points.
1. Make websites for people, not search engines.
2. Make websites that convert to your end goal… not just rank for keywords.
3. Build a brand around a community. One that loves you and will fight for you because they love your services. Don’t shut them off.
4. Make your brand so big that search engines need you.
So those are my thoughts on Search Engine Optimization. Now please keep in mind I am not a professional SEO. I have never been paid for SEO services. I don’t spend time researching Google Patents or brain storming with other SEO’s about what could possibly happen in the future. All of my opinions about SEO come from my experience in doing over 10 million dollars in online commerce in the last 5 years.
Images provided by bigstock
Where My Hatred of SEO Comes From
Are Your Products F’n Nasty (NSFW)
My Secret To Dominating Digg.com (years ago)
{ 182 comments… read them below or add one }
Jeremy, you wrote:
“Ok sounds great right? Google ’s top gun (Matt Cutts) and all the best SEO’s in the world have advised him how to manipulate Google ’s results to make his website show up #1.
“But there is only one problem. When DK (Dr David Klein) came to me for help converting web visitors into customers he told me he was not getting any customers from his website. And honestly a quick look at the website shows you why. Its not very user friendly and there is no real call to action or incentive to book an appointment.”
Of course! That’s why much of the SEO world is so different from (let’s say) PPC. Too many bragging rights for “rank”.
As soon as you begin paying for clicks, measuring cost per lead, etc. — or working for clients who do that — the universe changes. Even with smaller companies who pay for clicks, the expense forces a dialogue about measurement and conversion. Traffic isn’t “free” even when it is.
Yep agree with Andrew here. I love SEO but this whole post is a fantastic reminder not to be reliant on it. I’d love to know what John Chow did that made his blog blow up despite removed from rankings… guest posts? paid traffic? anyone know?
Thanks Jeremy for the useful post. – Vince
From everything I’ve read from John, it sounds like it was all kickass content and paid/incentive traffic.
He also gives out a ton of prizes for promoting his site. He does a drawing for an iPad which cost $500 and gets $5000 worth of traffic and inbound links. It’s really pretty smart.
Commenting really isn’t a very good traffic building strategy. Guest posting is productive, but very time consuming.
The main thing John seems to focus on is building his e-mail list. Once he has your e-mail, you’re way more likely to come back and he can run you through his sales funnel.
Another thing that brings people to John’s site is that he does share his knowledge with others and the fact that his name has become a brand.
I have come accross wonderful sites by accident and a day later I cannot recall the website name. A simple name like JohnChow.com and ofcourse Shoemoney stick in memory due to their brand value and also because they are easy to remember.
It is articles like this that make me subscribe to your site. Not only was this article the bees knees but there are no less than 4 other articles that you linked to that I want to read. So I guess that is a case study in what you are discussing. Make sites for users and they, like me, will spend the next hour reading material on your site
Nice job Jeremy!
You make a good point Marcus when you state
” Make sites for users and they, like me, will spend the next hour reading material on your site ”
If the content is there you will find readers flocking to your site for the information they enjoy reading on.
This is also why I subscribe to Shoemoney and hang around waiting for him to write something.
Great post bald dude guy. John Chow always tried to outgame the system. Luckily he surrendered other Google would have whooped his ass. Now there are no more links on his website but I am sure he is still making a killing. Gosh I love Asians (wait did I say that out loud) lol
While I agree on the comment thing and building user engagement, most of what you just discussed is SEO, or some part of it. In 2003 sure, in was about manipulating results. Now it encompasses much more, including conversions, engagement, social media, Facebook ads, etc. If you’re an SEO and are ignoring everything else then you should look for another line of work.
Don’t hate me ;P
I hate you because you don’t post on your blog anymore. ;P
LMAO… I don’t have time dude
This comment cracked me up. I’m also a blogger who doesn’t have time to blog. I think that there are a lot of out there. Have to force myself to do it, or three weeks will pass before I know it!
I gotta have some of your legendary BBQ…maybe bring some to PubCon Vegas or Affiliate Summit East???
I should be at both….I’ll see if I can arrange an event
At the DK Poker Tournament would be awesome!
I think this is exactly why you see many of the best SEO’s focusing on driving converting traffic and not just driving traffic now. There’s a big difference to the bottom line, and it’s what everyone should ask about when talking to anyone about their optimization techniques. If they only drive traffic but ignore user satisfaction, then it’s worthless.
The takeaway from this is “be super big and do whatever the fuck you want”, and then you can tell Google to shove it. Stop being a name brand and you’re dead.
Yeah it sucks, but what’s the alternative? Google HAS to both police the SERPs for black hat AND let black hat happen. If they don’t, search becomes useless.
In a perfect world there wouldn’t be a double standard, but in this world, there has to be.
I absolutely agree with you, about conversions, if you are getting traffic but your pages suck at converting you’re doing it wrong.
But the opposite is also true the best converting pages in the world won’t do you any good, if you’re sitting at number 75.
So you need to prioritize for profitability as you say
so work on getting the rankings and the traffic first, THEN worry about getting the conversions.
Everyone has to play to their strengths if community building isn’t one of yours, stop wasting your time doing it. Focus on what it is that sets you apart, even if that’s being a cranky anarchist hatin’ on the man. Style and branding is never what you do that everyone thinks is “right” it what you do that they think is “wrong” and makes you stand out.
In a time where we are filled with social media guru’s who vomit about the value of community building and comments, you just might stand out as being the guy who turned comments off … just sayin’
Michael,
Are you now working on Shoe to shut off his very comments that you commented on?
I would say Shoe WOULD do it before Outspoken Media does
,Michael Martin
I doubt he would every.
Does DK not understand he’s getting his rankings because of the links he has? And any changes to his site that are done with the user inmind while maintaining proper site setup, will not cause him to drop his rankings??
Any SEO worth his salt will tell him, if the term doesn’t convert, it’s worthless. SEO shouldn’t be used primarily for building brand awareness. Because of the coverage he’s had, his site is going to out rank every one of his competitors. It’s not like the market is very competitive anyway. Maybe I’ll email him and have a chat, because that’s ridiculous to not want to modify a page that is not generating leads.
and that page looks so unprofessional, i won’t buy anything from there. doesn’t appeal me anyway.
Yah, me neither.
You think poopegifts looks unprofessional?? Do you get the premise of the website?? I would hope you wouldn’t be buying anything for yourself on it.
we r talking about the site that is the topic in this article not about your website.
You are a smart man Shoe Money. Instead of small businesses investing in the services of a SEO, they should just go to a SE conference. Then act all uniformed of SEO methods and get links from Matt Cutts and other SEO’s.
Might work even better, if the person is a really good looking woman.
1. Buy a conference ticket for $300-$1000
2. Hire attractive a attractive woman to attend conference $200-$500, and ask for help.
Maximum spent would be $1500. Much less than most SEO’s would charge.
Woooow great post
Google is so big (if u care about organic traffic only) that you can’t neglect it. But if we have multiple traffic streams we can care less about Google. Don’t care about google but do not do something stupid to get banned from them. its like you can decide to not follow them but u can’t decide to go against their rules.
Nice list of tips. It’s no good if you drive a bunch of traffic to your site and make no conversions
Fantastic post!
One of your best yet.
I am an Attention Deficit , Over Caffeinated Marketer… and you held me through the ENTIRE article…
.. That has not happened in recent history (2yrs).
Excellent!
“Make websites for people, not search engines.”
That advice is priceless. I never understood why people would spend hours trying to optimize their site for search engines when they don’t understand how the algorithm works in the first place. What happens when they change the algorithm?
Totally true. I spent months twiddling about with ‘seo’ and then finally decided just to start writing. Now all I do is write and write and write, pages and pages of stuff I really believe in and…whaddya know, the traffic (targetted, sticky, come-back and buy traffic) grows naturally around it and, without giving it a second thought I find I am naturally #1 on google for many of my longtail keywords. So, seo sucks. Content still is and always will be, King.
Totally agree here. I too have worked myself blue to get a few of my websites ranked on Google.
Yeah, they all ended up on the first page in the 1st position. But guess what? Google Panda was unleashed and in no time all my sites sank like a mafia victim in cement shoes. My take on this it to use article submission as part of a very diverse and long term link building campaign. Only that way you build resilience in your website’s ranking ability.
SEO Sucks!
This post is certain to piss off a few SEO people – but so what? It gets to the heart of the matter, and so many clients and small businesses that I work with do not understand that online they are building a brand. Sometimes part of your web site brand needs to be something that people naturally want to link to – which is usually not just your standard products and services pages.
Your comments about the chiropractor and being ranked #1 but not converting the traffic to customers is also classic. Even if you only get 100 pageviews a day, conversions are key. Thanks once again for breaking it down into plain english….
=)
What I think is really frustrating about DK’s story is that he’s too afraid to try something different. If his traffic dropped and he wasn’t getting any new clients, he could have easily changed his copy back. I’m frustrated when people won’t try something new because they are clinging to the tactic they used once with a successful outcome.
Great article. You have got to know limits. Most important is the viewing customer of the site. Its better to have 10 people in a year that bought from you, then 100,000 people find you and not buy.
User experience is number, Serps will fall in place.
Just read your this post in my mail, and it is one of the best post I have read which actually shows the big picture of search engine marketing.
Nice post. Wish those promoting SEO shared your viewpoint.
Even when you have a site that does well with SEO, you will hear the wrong things from snake oil seo types. Sometimes what the recommend doesn’t even matter like “you are missing meta keywords”. They should know that they keywords are virtually useless.
You know I have been working on SEO building techniques and messing with them on both of my sites. I called myself an SEO whore the other day in a post that was purely designed for SEO, full of internal links to posts.
After reading this I don’t think I am going to try so hard. I am going to keep up doing what I have been and let Google figure it out.
Thanks for the info!
Justin
Shoe,
You should broadcast your combined hatred at SMX Advanced in Seattle this June & join the Search Marketing In The Facebook Zone panel…with Dennis Yu
http://searchmarketingexpo.com/advanced/2010/full_agenda2#391
Maybe DK can join you to bookend Dennis on the panel
Was great seeing you again at Affiliate Summit West as I was partnering up with Lyndon Reid there in Vegas but missed the big Blackjack hand.
,Michael Martin
Fantastic post and well worth a read. It shows we all need to make a good NO Great site and then the rest will follow.
Hey Jeremy – I know (from what you’ve said in the past) that you pretty much don’t care about spelling and grammar, and that the message is more important, and I respect that. However, there’s one little mistake that you’ve made multiple times that you *might* like to know about. In your newsletter below, one of your lines start with “The basic just of that video”. You really meant “gist”, not “just”.
PS> This article was spot on. It’s good to get these reminders from time to time.
Best,
Traffic without conversion = the suck. That’s pretty much where I live, but that’s a story for another day.
John Chow didn’t get “too big to fail.” If he refused to go along with Google, then he would never have been reinstated. A better example of being too big to fail is when you have so many connections to Google and top VCs that you can rape the search engine guidelines w/out being punished. Or being a big brand like Forbes and selling links w/out a PR penalty–that’s being too big to fail.
John Chow isn’t in those categories. He had to change his behavior in order to be let back in. I really wonder if his brand build up had anything to do with him being let back in at all because websites by nobodies have been known to have their penalties lifted when they stop their offending behavior.
Shoe, don’t turn off comments. I wouldn’t be able to drop my crappy link in the false hopes of it actually helping my non-existent rankings.
OMG I had a hard time finishing this article. It was a long one!
I think that creating content is great, and I agree that it has to be done. But what if you are someone like DR K? How much can be said about the topics he is writing about? And since his competitors are all using SEO services to get themselves above him AND actually convert, how can he stay afloat? I think that SEO is an evil necessity these days. YOu simply have to have it, or you risk getting buried by your competitors.
I don’t think you hate seo’s at all. I think you hate half assed seo’s. Getting people to your website is half the battle, converting them is the other half. So if an seo only brings people to a website but stops at that, it’s like a marathon runner getting to the head of the pack and then walking off the track before the race is done.
True… but since 99% are half assed…
You wanna hear some irony? 2 minutes after I posted this I got a call from an seo company offering to do monthly submission to search engines for the low low price of $14.95 per month… =/
So in short… The old saying is revised. It used to be “Content Is King.”
Now it is “Content + Community + Branding = Need”, which naturally becomes the King.
Good points, I agree with most, but isn’t “hatred” a little strong?
Outstanding post Jeremy. You’ve made some great points, the video is great also!
GREAT article. Love it.
the best part of this post is I received 2 versions.
one with your usual title:
Shoemoney – Skills To Pay The Bills
I hate that I don’t know your topic of the post – I think I get why you do it but I just don’t like it…many I end up not clicking thru
but on this title:
Where My Hatred of SEO Comes From – ShoeMoney April Newsletter
Makes sense – catchy title – from Shoemoney, cool I click in and know what I’m getting into
Well written post, the best post I have read in months on all of the blogs I am currently subscribed to.
I have stopped looking keywords for past few months, haven’t done any link building for my sites in over a year or so, yet the traffic grows, because I spend more time in improving user experience and building content, which is what at the end of the, users are looking for.
Not sure if I understand the concept of create great content and the world will show up. I know lots of people that have great content. So if they have no links, no authority and no-one reading them because they are just living on their site/blog, how do they get found and read?
Love an answer to that question.
I’ve not been working on my webites that long but what I do already know is that there’s a lot of seemingly contradictory advice to sift through. SEO isn’t a whole lot of fun (for me, anyway – although hopefully that will change in time as my traffic improves) so I enjoyed reading this post… ta.
You got it straight on the SEO, i believe the same. @FirenzeZ “Content + Community + Branding = Need”, which naturally becomes the King.— hell yes
Very enlightening and well written piece. One of the few lengthy articles I have read in its entirety.